LuAnn Nigara + Erica Reiner chat about green interior design.

Episode 729 With Erica Reiner: Make More Green by Going Green On “A Well Designed Business Podcast”

EMI owner, Erica was invited to chat with the one and only LuAnn Nigara to discuss how she niched down and rebranded after a few years in business. They discuss what prompted her big change, what she does when the scarcity mindset strikes, and how her business has changed since she stopped trying to offer everything to everyone.

You can listen here or read the transcript below:

A Well Designed Business Podcast Host - LuAnn Nigara

“LuAnn: (01:06)
Welcome to a well-designed business. Erica Reiner is with me today, and she's the owner, principal designer of Eco Method Interiors. It's an LA based full service, and e-design interior design business, specializing in cleaner and greener spaces in business. Since 2015, Erica has helped clients create more joy, expression, health and wellbeing through transformational design using the eco method way. Erica has been featured in Better Homes and Gardens, Forbes Apartment Therapy, reader's Digest, and More. In her spare time, she's hanging out with her husband Reid and Rescue Mutt Hank. Let's see how Erica came to choose the eco-friendly niche, and let's understand the impact that this specialization has had on attracting her ideal clients and growing her interior design business. Hi, Erica, thanks so much for joining me on a well-designed business today.

Erica: (02:02)
Thank you so much for having me. You are a big deal, and I'm so excited to be on your podcast.

LuAnn: (02:08)
You're a nut . Oh my goodness. Well, that's very sweet of you. I appreciate it. But you know, you're a podcaster too, so you know the work that goes into this, right?

Erica: (02:17)
Oh, yes, it is. Uh, could be and probably is for you. Definitely a whole other full-time job. Yeah.

LuAnn: (02:25)
Oh, no, yeah, it's, it is become my full-time job, that's for sure. Um, but you know what? I think it's awesome, and we're certainly, you know, we'll get to spend a few minutes talking about your podcast, though also Green by Design, um, where you talk to. Well, tell us, why don't you just tell us a couple of minutes about your podcast for the, um, listeners?

Erica: (02:43)
Sure. I definitely jumped on the podcast bandwagon a couple years ago, and, um, just finished my second season because I was getting a lot of inquiries from other designers and home pros who saw what I was doing in the green design space and wanted to know a little bit more about it, had some questions, didn't know where to start, didn't know what was up and what was down. So I figured it would be a great way to educate other people and also just have the opportunity to make really interesting contacts and conversations. So there we go.

LuAnn: (03:18)
I love it. And on your show, you are also interviewing other designers with their experience in green design, is that correct?

Erica: (03:29)
That's right. Yeah. So everyone from other designers, green designers, um, or whatever they wanna call themselves to all different kinds of related home pros and, uh, green vendors, green certifiers, everyone really under the umbrella. And next season I am, if anyone has a contact for me, I am looking for anyone who could be considered a green game changer, who really changed the interior design industry for the better.

LuAnn: (03:57)
Well, interesting. Well, I, I will fall over if there's somebody in our audience that qualifies with that criteria. So .

Erica: (04:04)
Thank you.

LuAnn: (04:05)
All right. All right. So we'll put your, um, contact information and everything in the show notes. If, um, and I also encourage you, if this is your niche and passion and specialty to check out Erica's podcast. So tell me, Erica, how did you, so you were an interior designer, I guess let's call it as a generalist, that you can correct me if you want, but then you did decide about three or four years ago to rebrand and literally go full frontal with eco uh, design and green design. Tell me about where and how and why that happened.

Erica: (04:40)
That's right. So, uh, as I was mentioning, my previous career, my previous life was in the environmental industry. Everything from working for, you know, small, you know, solar industries, consulting, everything like that to, um, environmental education as a adjunct professor. And I loved all of it, but I was, I just knew that I wanted to start my own business. I had seen a bunch of people around me, uh, expand what was possible, and I kind of turned on the light bulb and I was like, okay, I definitely wanna be my own boss and I definitely wanna have this business. So I started it with interior design and a few other services like, um, you know, organizing, decluttering, and then environmental consulting as a separate service, because I, I come from that world. Environmentalism is a huge part of my identity and who I am and what I'm passionate about.

Erica: (05:40)
And I couldn't, you know, leave it behind. But it wasn't working that well with, I felt really scattered and like I was giving confused messaging and branding of what who I am and what I offer. So, you know, lots of self-education and coaching and classes and all the things later. Um, I paired down what I was offering and officially rebranded from my old business, which was called Ely Designs as part of my name to now Eco Method Interiors, which is in full service and e-sign interior design, but specifically niche into the sustainable and non-toxic arena. So, as I was mentioning, I just felt like I, I couldn't separate that part of me and what I wanted to offer. And as I was starting my business all those years ago, it was a side hustle, and I was finding small little projects to build my portfolio, but I was really pushing my values and what I knew I could bring into it onto people who were not that jazzed about that. And I, part of the rebrand was, okay, my ideal client should be coming to me. So I really want to niche into that and, um, and make it available and accessible to everyone who has interest in that.

LuAnn: (07:04)
Well, and this is the, you know, that's the money line right in there is that previously you were attracting various types of clients that maybe were interested in you for your aesthetic or your expertise in, in your background as far as, as a designer, right? But then when you get them into your world, you're trying to say, isn't EcoSign important for you? Isn't this great? Look at what I wanna teach you about it. And the shift of niching into our Fred Burns only that we call it on the show here forever, will be known as that. Is that now you, you know, I love the way you said, instead of trying to, you know, get them to grasp the values that were important to me, now you're marketing and your, um, brand identity calls to you, the people who are like, Hey, me too. That's important to me as well. And so now you're on the common ground. Is that basically the experience that you've forgotten now?

Erica: (08:00)
That's exactly it. And it's a lot less frustrating for everyone involved because yeah, I really felt it was, I, I just had this notion and this feeling, you know, back in the day when I was telling people about it, they would say like, oh, you know, like, that must be gangbusters in Los Angeles where you are and this, that, and the other. And I was like, well, yeah, you know, you'd think so, but I really need to make sure the right people are finding me. 'cause I just had this idea that I know other people are looking for this because I'm concerned about this, and other people must be too. So it was really my goal to position myself to be able to be found by people who were looking for that Mm-Hmm.

LuAnn: (08:46)
And, you know, just to spend a few more moments on that. It, it, I just settling in, visualizing that difference, that the conflict is erased now, instead of you taking any, you know, wonderful person out there and starting with scratch and saying, have you heard of EcoSign? Have you heard of sustainability? Have you heard of this? You could convert X amount of people to caring about it. There's no question. But the o opposite is happening now that the people who come to you, they've already done some research, already have some inclination and desire to have that expressed in their home. And so it just, is it, I gotta believe it's just making life so, so much easier for all of you, right?

Erica: (09:35)
Absolutely. And there's, you know, while I still get some people who are less informed or less interested and the projects just come to me from referral or from some other strange avenue, um, I do think, you know, I'm, I'm much more upfront about it now. I'm not trying to sneak it in. Um, I just explain who I am, what I'm about, and how I incorporate cleaner and greener pieces into every project. And that's kind of hearkens back to the name and the branding of eco method. 'cause it's, you know, my methodology where I want the green recipe to make sense along with each client's budget and aesthetic and priorities. And so, while certainly, you know, less, uh, prepared or less, um, interested clients come my way, I, I have deliverables and a process and, and the brand that makes it like really clear, um, but really accommodating. And, uh, we take it from there. But certainly my, my biggest goal was always to get my ideal client. To me, I just felt like I was struggling really hard with certain kinds of clients that didn't align with me and wasn't a great fit. And I really wanted to change that narrative.

LuAnn: (10:58)
When you decided to do that, when you decide when the light bulb went off and you said, okay, the, the switch has to be in the branding, right, because you just described how challenging it was to consistently have clients that it wasn't an easy process to be in together. Um, when you decided to change the brand and lean into it, was it, oh my goodness, that's it with clarity, just go that way? Or was it like, that's what I should do, but I'm a little concerned. Like, how, how, how was your headset on that Erica?

Erica: (11:31)
Hmm. I think it was a little bit of both. On the one hand, I felt really excited at the possibility of what it could mean, and the idea of getting these ideal clients, and especially having them come to me instead of doing a lot of chasing, that was super, super strong pull and attractive to me. On the other hand, I certainly do even still now feel that, you know, I could be missing out or, you know, I think a lot of that, um, fear is from a scarcity mindset that I have certainly struggled with, um, my whole life, but also certainly my whole business life. And so it's been a good exercise in , you know, extricating that from my mindset. And so it's something that I definitely still struggle with. Even like how I was saying, I took out some services that I'm not doing anymore. I was trying to do everything, and now it's paired down, but I still flip flop a bit and, you know, contemplate, should I add that back in? Or, you know, could this tie into everything I'm offering? But am I just gonna be chasing people in that arena instead of bringing them in to me through this one channel that I've, you know, been more established in? So it's certainly something I still struggle with.

LuAnn: (12:56)
Okay. So the reason I asked is, and I appreciate your saying, the, the truth about it, right? Because sometimes we are sometimes on, on in this, on this show in conversations when we meet people at different markets, that the person that's in your seat is in that moment of that possibility and that excitement and relaying the stories of, oh my goodness, ever since I did this, you know, it's such a passion and joy to work with people who have the similar mindset and have the same values, right? So sometimes it can feel like it's easier than it is to do. And so I think it's important to share that just because it feels completely right doesn't mean that it's always gonna be easy. And it doesn't mean that you're not gonna have fear wrapped up entangled into it. I I mean, we're still running a business at the end of the day. That's the point. If you don't have a little bit of healthy fear about running your business, then I don't know, maybe you're a sociopath and you just don't understand consequences. , totally. You know?

Erica: (13:59)
Yeah, certainly. Um, and, you know, I wanna give anyone who's thinking about it permission to just try it. Um, try what they're thinking about, because nothing is set in stone. Um, there are baby steps you can do, or, you know, like ways of putting your toe in the water and, and kind of taking it bit by bit and seeing how it feels. And if you wanna delete that section on your website and you don't wanna run that Instagram campaign, like you can totally retract. But I think for anyone who feels like a particular calling or passion, it might be a really good idea to just, you know, see what happens and test and change and experiment. Because you certainly, I mean, I don't think, I can't guarantee it, but I certainly don't think you would regret trying something that you have strong values in or a calling to, as opposed to not doing something like that. Um, just out of fear.

LuAnn: (15:05)
Right. And, you know, you're making me, it's making me remember my conversations way back in the first year of the podcast with Deborah, uh, Dari from Dari Design, who is the founder of vegan design.org. Mm-Hmm. . And I remember her describing, we're going back six years now. I remember, remember her describing how in her Miami-based firm, she, she personally was committed to vegan design, and she would introduce it to clients. And that's, to, to your point, that's exactly how she started. You said you dipped a toe in, she would for the places that the same sofa just as beautiful, just as functional, just as high quality could be vegan if it could, and, you know, not a lot of bells and whistles that were put out of balance because of it, as far as budget or anything, she would, um, either simply place it or suggested and explain why.

LuAnn: (16:01)
Right. Um, and then I ended up talking to her. Deborah and I have become great friends, and we talk all the time, but I remember two or three years down the road now, it was like every project was vegan. That was it. You know, the, so it went from, this is important to me, let me start to educate and introduce it into my projects. Let me start to find the resources and things that align with my values. And then it evolved into, Hmm, this is all I do now. Now, you know, I, in Deborah's case, you, she won't sell you a leather anything. It has to be the foe. Right?

Erica: (16:36)
Yeah. I remember, uh, I remember that vividly that stuck out to me in her epi. I think it must've been her second episode where she was saying like, I don't even give them, I don't even give them the option. Mm-Hmm. , I just, there's, here's the beautiful stuff I am in my business and my expertise that I am, I am guiding them to, and this is what I'm suggesting, and they approve it or they don't . And I was like, yeah, great. Right on

LuAnn: (17:03)
, exactly.

Erica: (17:03)
So, um, I, I think she and I have a lot of places where we overlap in a lot of places where we don't. Um, but to the point of her values and how she structures her business, I think that's, um, a really great place to be. And, you know, as I grow, I want to certainly grow into that. Mm-Hmm.

LuAnn: (17:22)
. Right, exactly. So, question for you, as you are growing this brand and doing this, you are not at, you know, I'm gonna just make an assumption based on that little section there, you are not at the point, or are you where if somebody wants something and there is a sustainable option or a green option available, but they don't prefer it for whatever reason, are you at the point where you're like, sorry, that's not my, my firm, that's not my values. Or is there, you know, how is that handled at this point in your firm?

Erica: (17:54)
Great question. And that's actually integral to who I want to be and the kind of company I want to, um, offer and have, which is, again, that, that the method in my name Eco Method Interiors, I am taking a pretty realistic view on the state of things. And so my methodology is to incorporate things into sort of a recipe that, or I guess I should use a design analogy into a tapestry , and weave it in, um, of all of the things that make sense to that particular project. So I have not had to date a single project where 100% of everything had to be perfectly ego, perfectly sustainable, or perfectly non-toxic. It's always been, um, that, that, that recipe of products where I think I can get a better alternative and ones that are conventional. Hmm. Because for a lot of reasons, one is budgetary.

Erica: (19:04)
Um, one, another one might be, you know, availability. So high, high style, you know, aesthetic forward is really, really important to me. I am not about the granola anything, you know, this was made by Amish people, and it will do. I am really trying to offer an experience that has all different kinds of aesthetics and options. And so availability is another realistic, you know, criteria. And so while there are a lot of vendors coming onto the market more and more who are doing a better job in one area or all areas, I need to be really realistic about that criteria as well. So I feel really passionately that I need to have, be grounded in what is realistic and what is gonna work for each particular client. So my, um, what's the French expression? The peace des resistance? Yes. Oh, that was such a

LuAnn: (20:08)
Terrible, I always mess, I always mess that one up too, .

Erica: (20:11)
But my, um, but my, you know, like signature deliverable is my custom green guide. And so that is where I break down for the client, what I think I have goals. And I say, okay, so for this, you know, the case goods, I think we can get 30% of them from FSC certified wood or salvaged wood or whatever it might be, where I'm incorporating my expertise in what is available. Um, and what my experience has is, you know, like, what is gonna work for this project? So that's my custom deliverable where I am realistically parsing out what can be brought into this project in a way that's gonna work for them. And I do feel like that is really critical not to, you know, like guilt, shame judge, or demand that everything be perfect because it's just not possible at this point. And I wanna take people where they are and, you know, maybe bump them up a level or two with any way I can educate or guide them, um, but be, you know, compassionate about it.

LuAnn: (21:23)
Well, and it also sounds, uh, like it's necessary to be realistic about it, right? Because what you said in there, if I understood you correctly, is it's, we're not at the point in, um, production in, you know, the US or wherever, where you even could deliver a 100% eco-friendly interior at this point, right? It's just, it's just literally impossible at this point. Is that correct?

Erica: (21:49)
I think, I mean, to be really pedantic, I think theoretically I could, if we had all of the time and money in the world, but usually that's not the structure of anyone's project.

LuAnn: (21:58)
Oh, you know what, you are, right. I'm gonna clarify that. Right. Because they have been doing those, you know, there's certain environments and homes that are, but that's like, with budget is not necessarily a concern and all of the things. So it's, it's a, it's as, as you said, it's a recipe is exactly the way to describe it. It's the combination of availability, budget, budget requirements, or lack thereof, um, desire, you know, all the things. But Right. I guess what it is is , it reminds me of, you know, for a hundred years, I'm the kind of person that, you know, Monday through Saturday, I'm gonna watch all the things that I eat. I'm gonna eat good, I'm gonna exercise, but Saturday night I'm gonna go out to dinner and I'm gonna have what I kind of want to eat. And if we, my husband wants to order dessert, we're gonna have dessert. Like, you know what I'm saying? . Absolutely. I love that

Erica: (22:44)
Analogy. Yeah. So you're right. Um, I've seen, I, I say this a lot. I've seen a lot of progress. Um, take 10 years, take even five years, even two years. Mm. I'm happy to say I'm seeing lots of progress. People are waking up and therefore vendors are waking up. There's interesting collaborations between organizations and vendors all the time. I'm seeing lots of good stuff happening. Um, but yes, it certainly adds a whole other layer of criteria that I'm filtering through to sourcing. Um, and the availability is just, of course, not as broad as all of the conventional options that we've got out there. So, so that is a really important piece as to why Yeah. It's gotta be a recipe and not, you know, my way or the highway. Mm-Hmm. , it just doesn't seem like good business, and it doesn't seem, yeah, it doesn't seem realistic

LuAnn: (23:41)
Right. At this point to your, to your point, I mean, it also reminds me of, you guys are all too young, but back when cell phones came out first, they were in the car, right? Mm-Hmm. . Oh, yeah. And they were mounted in the car. And anybody that had it, you were, you know, you literally were just like, that is just so extra . Like, how could you need to call somebody when you get in the car? Right? I can literally remember having this debate with the guy who was our landlord at the time, uh, for our building at Window Works. And I just is like, he's like, how are you on the road all day without a car, without a car phone? I'm like, it's just not that hard. There's payphones, there's things to do, but the thing is, you never could have imagined that 25 years later, 10 year olds all have cell phones.

LuAnn: (24:25)
Like, and so maybe that's it. It's just, it's becoming more talked about, more desired, more understood. And as you said, more and more vendors and makers and artisans and things will start to pay attention to it. And who knows? Uh, you said the, the advances in even two years, let alone five or 10 are dramatic. So, you know, at least think about cell phones 25 years later. You know, it could be that same kind of dramatic thing where as a, as a people, we start to embrace it and take it seriously because it, it's sort of is the writing on the wall that it could be pretty disastrous if we don't, right?

Erica: (25:05)
Absolutely. And, you know, the, the industry, yeah, I mean, the industry as a whole has a lot of progress to be made, which is, um, you know, kind of why I want to be one of the people pushing us, us towards that progress. Um, we've all seen it like on our construction and renovation sites, or, you know, just some of the waste in the fact, any, any little thing I'm sure we've all seen and, you know, tucked away into the back of our minds and we just have to vote with our dollars. And so the more we can source from vendors who are doing a great job or make requests or ask questions to our vendors, what do you have that's this, that, or the other thing, I think will be really helpful. So that is definitely part of my mission.

LuAnn: (25:51)
And I know we had Susan Ingles on the show several months ago, and she's the director of the Sustainable Furnishings Council, and she, you know, they're a resource. You can go onto their website and see the work that individual companies and vendors are doing to be more and more, um, you know, eco-friendly and green and sustainable and so forth. But do you have any particular resources that, do you use that, is that the website that you use when you're looking for new vendors, Erica? Or how do you go, like, so for designer listening that's saying, yeah, okay, this sounds great, but how do I get my feet wet in it?

Erica: (26:29)
Yeah. And this is the hardest part, just to be honest. So I have been, you know, making a vendor database for years now, and I organize it with a column for any information about anything the vendor's doing that's cleaner or greener. So I have that information, and I've just been slowly collecting over the years. Um, so it's everything from the amazing Sustainable Furnishings Council who I love and have also had the opportunity to chat with Susan, um, with, and there's other organizations too. Um, like Mindful Materials is a good one. Hmm. Um, and, uh, there's other folks who have some databases, if it's more construction oriented, there's actually a lot more databases on the, on the Googles that you can find. Um, if it is something like, you know, you wanna specify a particular like, uh, caulking or whatever like that, that's actually quite established.

Erica: (27:28)
Um, so there's lots of different online places. And then honestly, also just straight up asking vendors where you don't necessarily, here's, here's the deal. Not a lot of vendors will promote their sustainable efforts, even if they have some because of more, it's getting more antiquated ideas of barriers, perceived barriers to entry. Maybe it's still barriers to entry, but so just straight up asking vendors, like, do you have any lines or products that could fit in some way under the sustainable or non-toxic criteria? And I have found quite a few people I can put in my database, um, that have stuff going on that I had no idea about, just from looking at their website or their Instagram, you know, not mentioned at all in their branding or their marketing. Um, maybe because of that old fashioned view of what it means to be green and, and kind of that crunchy granola that

LuAnn: (28:31)
It's not be gonna be as pretty or beautiful or Yeah. Or feel as nice or look as nice and all the things.

Erica: (28:38)
Yeah. So I just went for my first time, finally got my butt over to, um, the High Point Market for the first time. Oh. And it was a really interesting experience going up to companies that were members of the Sustainable Furnishings Council, and ones that had either categorized themselves as sustainable in some way, or ones that, um, SFC, you know, told, gave me some advice to go see. And then I was just walking around, for instance, I saw this, um, little booth that had all of the books that designers used to style at the end, like coffee table books and bookshelf books. And I have a couple sources, but I thought his were really cool. And so I said, I just asked him and I said, is there, you know, where did these books come from? Like, is this salvaged in some way? Is this, you know, what is this? And he explained like, yep, it's all, you know, salvaged, reclaimed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And these new covers that I bind them with is made out of 80% post-consumer recycled paper. So it's like, great. Wow. I now know, you know, two criteria that you're giving you a leg up on my other book providers that I already had. Hmm. So I find out, long story short, I find out through every which way I, it, it's a lot of digging. Mm-Hmm.

LuAnn: (30:01)
And, and because you're interested and passionate, you're, you wanna find it out. And I, I, I agree with that. You know, that is, look, we gotta do our homework. We have to do our homework. And if it matters to us, doing our homework ourselves often yields more than just the end result of the source. But it yields a lot of information, uh, along the way, like you just did with that bookseller. And now when you have a conversation with your client about those books that you are placing on in their home, you know, you have a little bit more of a story behind it. Right. And it makes it more impactful to the end consumer to understand the whole thing about it, not just Oh, yeah. Recycled. Right.

Erica: (30:40)
Absolutely. And I think that people are eager to see that information and have, um, that story behind their purchases now more than ever. And especially, um, you know, good old millennial generation, um, where, you know, they are quite aware of their purchasing power. Mm-Hmm. So I think that it definitely, with all things being equal, if I can find you, um, you know, a beautiful sofa or whatever, um, that is on par with any other company, and it's just as trending, all the things being equal, if it has that awesome story behind it, I think that that gives people, and it certainly gives me, um, what they call an elder millennial . Um, it certainly gives me like, you know, some, some better comfort perhaps. So I think it's a really great thing to share whatever we can, um, about that product and make it top, uh, front and center of the marketing of every brand and, and as we source.

LuAnn: (31:50)
Exactly. Now, how about, are there, are there any, look, you described the one little area where there's a little bit of fear in leaning all the way into a niche publicly, and that you said it afraid of, well, other people not call me, blah, blah, blah. Right? Yeah. So that's one thing. Are there other things that someone who hasn't, like, as you mentioned, put their toe in this yet, where you would say, this kind of happens, this is a thing that has happened a couple of times with clients, or this is a stick point, or this is a difficulty or a challenge that maybe we wouldn't have expected? Is there anything that comes to mind, Erica, in that regard?

Erica: (32:33)
Hmm. I mean, going the other way, I have going, leaning all the way into the green, I've certainly had the experience where I just couldn't, there's just not the things available to the level of non toxicity a client has wanted with their very particular aesthetic. Hmm. So again, I guess mentioning that you're adding in a whole other layer of, you know,

LuAnn: (33:04)
Criteria,

Erica: (33:05)
Sourcing criteria to wade through. Um, so that is certainly something to consider. And if you have a very, what Okay. What I'll say is I know a lot of designers now, especially with the socials, have a particular aesthetic that is a part of their brand and are trying to draw clients to them for that aesthetic, as opposed to maybe the older school approach that I kind have of you design to your client's aesthetic, and you are well versed. There's not one that's right or wrong, but if you're in the niche of a certain style, that might be harder to then add in a second niche, whether that is wellness design, eco-friendly design, um, spiritual, you know, any other kind of like secondary niche, that is something that I definitely struggle with. Um, you know, you know, do I need to have like the secondary niche of what my design aesthetic is? And I get a lot of feedback that no, that I don't need, that my, my niche is this, you know, cleaner, greener thing, and I'm totally happy and passionate about designing to all different kinds of styles, but that might be something that could be tricky for people, um, who do go that way.

LuAnn: (34:26)
I could say that as a particular challenge because there might be 10, you know, I don't know, maybe there's 10 or 20 chandeliers that sort of fit your brand niche, niche niche in a, um, aesthetic way, or 10 or 20 sofas that fit your brand niche in aesthetic way, but maybe only two of them are for, for sustainable or clean or eco or whatever. And now you can't literally put them in every project. Right, right, right. So it gets to be challenging. I can see how that would be a challenge. So it's something to think about. It's not, nothing is not overcomeable. Right, right. It's just, uh, another thing to consider.

Erica: (35:03)
I was gonna say, I think with any niche or, you know, if you're, as you're dipping the toe into whatever it is you feel you wanna try, I think for me, what I learned over and over again and very late and the hard way, is to just set expectations up early and often. And if you can do that as you progress through, then you're gonna be having a much easier time than I did, and you can learn from my mistakes.

LuAnn: (35:34)
Okay. . Well, that's why you're here. That's it. So one of the things I would wanted a little clarity on for people like myself that are less informed, you've mentioned cleaner, greener, and then also non-toxic. So non-toxic is its own category. What, tell me a little bit about that,

Erica: (35:55)
Little bit about that. Sure. And this is, um, something I cover and explain all the time, because I do think it needs, uh, a lot of clarification. So I'll zoom way out first and just say there's not a lot of, you know, industry standard or, uh, oversight governmentally or otherwise that has standards or terms or regulations of any kind. So the green world and then the green world in our industry in particular, it's the Wild West out there. And so there is a patchwork of information and, you know, a patchwork of regulations and standards and all kinds of things. And that includes terms. So I use them quite interchangeably. I chose eco-friendly because I feel it's all encompassing, but under that umbrella, I would parse out non-toxic from sustainable. Mm. Usually what is good for the Earth is good for human health, and they're integral. What's that wordy Integr? I don't know. They're, they're, they're inextricably linked. ,

LuAnn: (37:09)
Right? . Okay.

Erica: (37:12)
But, um, we can, the example I always use that's pretty, um, basic for people to think about is your dining table. So I can source a dining table that has responsibly sourced wood, and that might take one of three forms. But then if that table is finished with toxic, you know, stains, varnishes, lacquers, whatever, it might still be somewhat sustainable from the responsible sourcing of the wood, but it might not be the best for human health of the workers who are putting that lacquer on, and for the end client of where it's gonna go if it's gonna off gas. So that's just kind of like a little bit of an insight is to the division where human health takes one direction and sustainability takes another. And I do find that clients will be interested in one or the other, or at least more educated about one or the other. And so I'm totally happy to work with their particular goals and needs, and then I try and do a little bit of guiding and educating along the way.

LuAnn: (38:20)
Okay. And so, and even within that description of something that's toxic or not toxic, toxic, and I like that, that you can start with a, a wood that is sourced responsibly and sustainably, but then when we put the finishes on it, but then in that finishes, you mentioned the two areas. So there is one layer of toxicity that is to the people who are manufacturing it and the damage to them. And then there is the second layer of toxicity if it's offgassing in your own home. And my guess, you can probably even have the first and not necessarily have the second, right?

Erica: (38:58)
That's right. Yeah. And it, it, that's why this Yeah. You, as you're seeing it's a really complicated leg onion, and there's a lot of layers, um, and a lot of gaps in information certainly. So, yes, absolutely. I, I think really the first layer and the layer that brings people to me is often the layer about their own health. Mm-Hmm. . But when we zoom out and expand what the impact could be about, you know, with folks like me trying to educate others about this industry, it could, it, it doubles in size when you think about the people in production on the front end. Mm-Hmm. , um, and all the way through the supply chain. Mm-Hmm. ,

LuAnn: (39:41)
We had an episode a few months back with Lane McNabb, who is an interior designer, uh, I wanna say also in the California area, I think Northern California though. And, um, she's a luxury designer and she's also very passionate about all of this cleaner, greener, non-toxic and sustainable. And she decided to develop her own furniture line. And she, in her episode, did a lot in explaining, you know, the layers that you said you have to go down and through. And just, it's not just our end user experience, it's the production of it all the way through. And what is it like where it's ultimately being made for the people who are making it. Right?

Erica: (40:23)
Yeah. So there's this whole social responsibility element that can come into it, um, as well, the human element. Mm-Hmm.

LuAnn: (40:30)
. Mm-Hmm. it also reminds me of the episode with, uh, Asha, the CEO of J, poor Living. She also is describing how they have their rugs made in India, but that they pay their artisans a fair wage and, you know, a living wage, you know what I mean? And, uh, committed to their conditions and, you know, you have to listen to the episode. It's amazing what they do in an industry that typically just ignores that and races to the bottom because you can, you know what I'm saying?

Erica: (41:02)
Absolutely. And that could be someone's entire niche of, you know, everything or we try our best to do fair trade, and that's like Mm-Hmm. that's a whole other ballgame. 'cause then you can have something that's totally eco-friendly, but has nothing to do with fair trade necessarily. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So, you know, you kind of have to figure out what is important to you and what is gonna motivate you to keep going when it does get tricky. And it does get tough. And that's kind of what I resort back to.

LuAnn: (41:30)
Hmm. Definitely. And all of this does affect all of us, whether we realize it, want to think about it, or passionate or nonplus by it, because, you know, it contributes to, uh, the, you know, climate change and all the things. Right, Erica?

Erica: (41:48)
Absolutely. So on a personal level, we all need to understand that everything we do as a society impacts us personally. It's hard to understand because if I put my professor hat on, because it is abstract and it's invisible a lot of times, or it's somewhere else, out of sight, out of mind, but people are becoming more aware of how collectively things impact us, like air quality, water quality, et cetera, resources. And then if we even wanna like, take it down to us as a profession and profitability in this industry, we as an industry, I think sustainable Furnishings Council tells us it's something like we're the fourth biggest industry, um, in contributing to deforestation, which has a whole slew of problems that impact people of all kinds in all locations. So if we want to keep, you know, our business going and our industry going, and even what we're able to source, you know, 5, 10, 20 years down the line, if we're still doing this, we need to be thinking long-term as well, just from a smart business point of view, because it doesn't make sense to, you know, use all of those natural resources in an unsustainable way, just from a business point of view.

Erica: (43:11)
Economically, natural resources and, um, business are inextricably linked. Mm-Hmm. . So that, you know, for the long term, if you're planning on sticking with it for a while, like I am, you know, it's investing in your future.

LuAnn: (43:25)
Hmm. Absolutely. And it's interesting because on my intake form, I ask a question, I ask, how does your firm practice diversity? And what, what, what, what do you do that contributes to the inclusive inclusivity? There we go with the language with not being exclusive, right. With being inclusive in the industry and how do you practice tolerance and so forth. And your answer came down to the fact that climate change disproportionately affects developing countries, low income communities and, um, uh, people of color. So tell, talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah,

Erica: (44:10)
Absolutely. So, and this is a, you know, tying back to what we were just talking about, like the, um, fair trade Mm-Hmm. And the, you know, human equity and fairness of all the steps through the production process. So it's, there's very clear research that climate change and any and all other environmental issues impact, impact developing countries or impoverished communities within a first world country. Um, disproportionately so access to clean air, water, um, anything like along those lines. And then opportunities. So job opportunities and how they are being treated in production of things in other countries. And our country is a, is a, a huge consideration, um, that impacts low income communities, um, communities that are majority people of color. So it's, it's inextricably linked the two, um, the two factors in our Venn diagram. Mm-Hmm. There's a huge overlap. And so environmental justice is social justice.

LuAnn: (45:29)
Hmm. Okay. So it really is something that, um, it's, if, if it happens to be your passion, it's a great calling card. It's a great way to connect you with clients who share your ideals and values. But regardless if it's your passion or not, there does seem to be some level of at least learning about it and understanding and navigating it, because as you said, it's impacting not just the sofa that's delivered to your luxury client, it's impacting all of the people along the way that had a hand in making it, delivering it, all of the things. Right.

Erica: (46:11)
All of the things. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

LuAnn: (46:14)
I mean, it's, it's, it's, on one hand it's a lot to ask for of a sofa, , you know what I mean? Totally. But you know, if you don't ask of it, you are gonna just keep doing the same ones that are detrimental to everybody along the way. That's the thing. You have to start with change

Erica: (46:32)
. Yeah. And you know, I, I don't like that our industry is a little bit behind other industries. Like we saw, you know, a bit of a revolution with the agriculture industry and the demand for and exposure of practices there that people are now looking for and buying better things. And the same thing I think happened with the fashion industry, which is another really resource intensive, environmental intensive industry. And we've been seeing, um, some movement there and more and more makers coming out with innovative solutions and sustainable brands. And I do think our industry is getting much better, but I don't want us to get left behind. And I think it is really important that we keep pushing it forward because it's just, there doesn't really seem to be an alternative for me. It, it's, um, it's kind of, you know, a non-starter. Mm

LuAnn: (47:31)
Mm I love it. So good so much to think about. You know, Erica, really so much to think about and the way it's like a spider web and just crisscrosses all the different areas of our life and, you know, of our communities both, like you said, you keep saying it's what directly touches you, but it's also the greater, greater global community and our effect on it. And as you know, to your point, as interior designers as a huge industry, you know, this industry is in a place to make a difference if there interest in making the difference. It's a, is basically what I'm hearing from everything you've said today.

Erica: (48:14)
I believe so, yes. And I think it can also just give you a leg up. Um, even if, say, even if you are right and your worst fears come true and you're suddenly not getting, you're having to say no or suddenly not getting any of the projects like that, that you want, you're turning people away or they're not coming to you because you've niched into X, Y, ZI still think in the long run it might give you a leg up because of your story and your values and what you are going to be presenting. And I think eventually, even if it's a little bit tough in the beginning, I do think it gives you a unique positioning where we are certainly, I don't know. Would you say that we're like a pretty saturated industry? It's hard to know. I don't know. Um, I do think there's enough for everyone, but I think in no way can it harm you if you are bringing along a story that is meaningful to you. Um, even if it, you know, it could be like just talking about diversity. It could be something like you, um, are a black-owned firm or whatever. It could be totally outside of environmental issues. I think having and declaring like who you are and what you believe in upfront, I just don't see how that could be harmful in the long term.

LuAnn: (49:41)
No, I agree a hundred percent. Because if you don't stand for who you are, what the heck do you stand for? Like, what is

Erica: (49:47)
The point? Yeah. Like

LuAnn: (49:48)
What are, like why are you showing up anyway? You know what I mean? And, and the thing is, is there is always enough for everybody. There is, and I don't care what it is. If you wanna start an ice cream truck business, if you wanna start an interior design firm, if you have the commitment and you have the skills and you can deliver the artistic side and you can deliver the business side, you are gonna be of success. It's, it's just, it. There's, there just is enough. But the thing about it, and the thing about it is, is how do you get found? And even if, because of this, this the fifth interview that we've done this year that has centered on the topic of sustainability and greener and cleaner. So, okay, so maybe a thousand designers enter this space in 2022 mm-Hmm. and say, here's my flag.

LuAnn: (50:33)
I'm a green designer. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , there's still a thousand stories there. There's still a thousand different ways that that passion came to you. And one is gonna resonate with one client and one is gonna resonate with another client. There is, I'm, I absolutely believe this with my whole heart. If you do something from your heart and you explain your reasons why you tap into your own mission, vision, values, why you were doing it, no one can compete with that. 'cause no one else is you, and you're not competing anymore. You're just saying, this is me. This is why I do it. This is how I do it. This is how it benefits you. Do you wanna do it together? That's it. It's, it's, it is totally. You know what I mean?

Erica: (51:18)
And I love being reminded of that because if you're, you know, like me, it can feel really , um, scarce, like I mentioned earlier. That's something I'm working on so it can feel really like, you know, scary and, um, and yeah, I guess just, it can feel really scary and scarcity mindset, but, but getting reminders like that is super important. And it is true. I certainly know that those fears are just fears and they're not reality. And I, you know, I'm constantly telling myself a rising tide lifts all boats, which was the impetus behind sharing what I know on my podcast. And I even sort of took one day to stare my scarcity in the face. And I made it a point to search out other green designers who are doing something similar to what I'm doing and just saying hi. Right. Um, this is me.

Erica: (52:12)
Uh, do you need any support? Let's talk, let's be friends. And I've certainly met a lot of really interesting people that way. And I'm really happy to say that I think overall the interior design industry and interior designers are coming together in a way that was not there in the past. And, you know, helping each other, because it's can be if you're, if you're, if you're, you know, not in a partnership, if you're head honcho and you've started from the ground like I have, and maybe you didn't go to design school or what, you know, whatever your story is, it can certainly be a lonely game and you're working in a vacuum and you have no idea what's up and what's down and whatever. And I think bringing down that veil of the industry as a whole has been so invaluable to me. And so I am certainly trying my best, even in my moments of, of not my best self, I do try and come out of that and turn right back around, um, and fight that instinct and share and share alike because it's been so valuable for me. And I wanna, I wanna, you know, turn around and pull someone else up too.

LuAnn: (53:17)
Good for you. Good for you. You can't lose doing that. You just can't. I mean, I not even like, well, maybe No, you cannot lose. Yeah. If you just share everything that you have and everything that you know, and give it with love and give it with openness, it was, it's gonna come back to you because no one can be you. You can tell somebody exactly the exact words, things, products, whatever, and they're not gonna put it together the way you will. They're not gonna tell the story the way you do. And that's your differentiator. And, and I know that. I know Mm-Hmm. This from experience. So it's easier when you have seen it in action and you can trust it. Um, but for, for yourself, who you're beginning to understand and beginning to see the rewards of it, and for anyone else listening, it, it is a truth.

LuAnn: (54:06)
I mean, on a completely different level, different type of thing, but exactly the same. I've said it on the show before. We had a window treatment retailer within a mile of window works for 25 years, within a mile it's window treatments. You know, what's so special about them? You know, you have your six or seven manufacturers, you know? Mm-Hmm. . If you wanna shop a Hunter Douglas silhouette, you can shop a Hunter Douglas silhouette. It's literally a shoppable item. Yeah. And I can't tell you that, I don't think in 25 years I ran up against that company against them for, uh, for the, you know, vying for the same customer, I dunno, 10 times. Yeah. And it's because our message out to the world was completely different. You know, it was the same product, but our message about it was completely different. And the funny thing is, is that that company ended up closing up maybe four or five years ago, do you know, a year and a half ago. Another one opened up now a mile away in the other direction in my same town, . And I'm just like, all right, you guys all want all the goods here in Livingston that we've built for you. That's fine. You're right. It's a great community. And everybody here knows that custom window treatments are worth it. But, you know, we haven't, I, to my knowledge, we haven't done one quote that the client had a quote from that company yet,

Erica: (55:27)
Not one. And, and what I'll say is also something that my current business coach, who I met through a million years ago, um, working at his surf shop is just the, the, the, the energy you put out, like we used to have at the register, a list of all the other surf shops in the area, so if we didn't have something right, they were looking for or, you know, whatever in that area. And he, and he kind of like invented that and created that, that energy and that community that totally changed things. And it was an award-winning shop, and it went on for three decades. Right. And just had the biggest community impact. People who worked there are all still obsessed with each other. Mm-Hmm. , you know, it, it's a whole thing. But that exactly,

LuAnn: (56:16)
Because he knew there was enough for everybody. If he didn't have it, why shouldn't the guy down the block get the job? Why not?

Erica: (56:22)
Absolutely. And it creates a conversation between people doing something similar and it creates just a healthier whole, you know Mm-Hmm. environment on the whole. And that is really, I think, hand in hand with what I'm trying to do with the industry and sharing this, you know, knowledge because it can only benefit so many people, right. When we're all thinking a little cleaner and greener

LuAnn: (56:50)
. There we go. I love it. So good. Erica, I really, I what a great conversation. I learned so much today. I really appreciate it. And I do recognize that you are trying to share so that anybody who's interested can rise up and, and, you know, do this with you and get involved in this movement. And, um, also to the benefit of the bottom line of their business is, you know, that there is no reason why a niche will not for any niche, let alone this niche result in better quality clients who are more aligned with who you are and which in turn make the project more enjoyable to do so. Um, you may as well, every project's gonna have its hiccups and its problems, so you may as well all like each other in the process. . Absolutely.

Erica: (57:37)
Yes.

LuAnn: (57:38)
Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on, Erica. I appreciate it.

Erica: (57:43)
I can't thank you enough. It's been such a blast and I agree and awesome conversation, and I'm so excited and honored to be on the show today. You

LuAnn: (57:50)
Are welcome.

LuAnn: (57:58)
All right, so another shout out to my buddy Fred Burns, right. Erica is another shining example of how finding our niche, our Fred Burns only can increase not only our business success, but also help us get back into a place where our work and our clients bring us joy. Right? When Erica started her business, she wanted to do so much, and she was capable of doing so many things. Her business was offering, organizing, decluttering, environmental consulting. But after she was in business for a while, she realized that more wasn't better. And she noticed her messaging and scope of services was actually confusing clients. Who was she? What was her expertise? What were they hiring her for? With help from a coach, she realized that establishing a niche would help clarify her mission, her offering, and help attract the right clients. She now offers only full service design that's sustainable and non-toxic.

LuAnn: (58:54)
With the rebrand, she quickly discovered is that she doesn't have to start at the beginning with every single client. She's not wasting time trying to convince someone why sustainability matters, why and how toxins can sneak into your home through your decor, and why some products may cost more or take longer to create. Right? Her clients are already on board. They're already looking for that. Okay? And even if they're not 100% committed, they're already open and curious about the concept. There's no convincing, right? And maybe they're listening to our podcast to educate themselves even further with a rebrand and niching. There's no more struggling with clients who don't get her and constant pushback and second guessing. Guessing right? Now, I'm sure Erica will agree that drilling down and establishing a niche doesn't mean your business all of a sudden becomes easy breezy, right? Wouldn't that be nice businesses?

LuAnn: (59:45)
Never easy. I would say it's rarely easy, okay? But when we have our own zone of genius, our area of expertise, we inversely expand our work satisfaction and our ability to market effectively. Prospective clients, get us, get what we offer and why we are the right person for the job, alright? But going from offering many services to one or two, or serving everyone to serving one segment in the market is a huge mind shift. All right? I don't wanna downplay what Erica went through. It takes courage. It's a big leap. There's fear, right? You're wondering, will I get enough clients? Can I pay the bills? If I say no to other projects, am I really good enough to call myself an expert in this niche? Well, for Erica, she knew she needed some help overcoming these fears. She hired someone to help her think clearly, think long-term, and coach her Through her doubts.

LuAnn: (01:00:35)
She shared that she still struggles with the scarcity mindset, but the difference between her and someone else is that she's working on it right? Day by day, she takes baby steps. Sometimes it's big leaps, right? And she may have to call her coach to help her, but this is how we grow personally and in business. I love that. As part of growing out of the scarcity mindset, she reached out to what she may consider. Some may consider her competitors. I salute her approach. Reach out, help someone. Ask for advice. Share what you've learned. I firmly believe that there is enough for everyone. There is enough for everyone. There is enough for everyone. We are all so unique in our talents, our personality, our approach, our skill. If you have a passion for something and you can share that with the world and pay attention to the business side of things as well, you will find that there is enough work to go around.

LuAnn: (01:01:35)
Now, because Kratt is a sponsor of the show, I wanted to share their commitment to sustainability with you. I've been doing business with Kratt through Window Works for four decades, so I wanted to share their statement on their furniture sustainability. It says, at krat Inc, we are committed to providing quality products with limited environmental impact, pairing beauty and heirloom quality materials, and with sustainability to support both the planet and our future generations. The Cravit Inc. Legacy is in Penetratively, that's a tough word for me. In ably bound to environmental awareness on their website at cravit.com/furniture-sustainability, they list all of their efforts to be sustainable. Here's a little sampling. Nearly all waste products are sustainably recycled at Cravit furniture factories. Greater than 80% of the metal upholstery springs in Cravit furniture come from recycled metal products. The foam padding and Cravit furniture contains the highest possible content of soy in an effort to reduce petroleum-based substances.

LuAnn: (01:02:42)
So how do we know if, by the way, hands off to cry, but, right. You know, hats off to you guys. Yay. All right. But how do we know if we're specifying a sustainable or non-toxic product? Erica's solution is to do the reach research herself. She starts on Google and even calls the company over the years. She's created her own list of resources that she knows she can rely on. If you want to hear more on the topic of sustainability or vegan design, check out the episodes with Susan Ingles. Um, episode six 70, Mike Peterson, number 5 69. Deborah Rosenberg from Damari Design. From vegan design.org. Number 82 1 17, 2 12 and two 18. Lane McNabb, numbers 2 0 5 and 6 99. And Asha, the CEO of J. Poor Living episode 5 26. All right, so as I see it, the bottom line here is that you do you right? When you do you truly, everything else falls into place. Are you doing what lights you up? Do you what you embrace your area of expertise? Maybe block off some time this week to check in with yourself. Are you enjoying your work? Do you feel like you're working in your zone of genius? Do your clients, your followers, your staff, know what makes you distinct and why you are the one for them. All right? Do a little work on that. Decide to do the work. Decide to have the courage to niche if it's calling you and decide to be excellent.

LuAnn: (01:04:16)
Thank you so much for joining me again today. This podcast is a production of Window Works, your resource for custom window treatments and awnings. To learn how we can help you on your next interior design project, go to www.windowworksnj.com. And if you're interested in working with me on your business, either through Masterminds or one-on-one coaching, or you want to know how to get my book, the Making of a Well-designed business, or you just wanna know what's going on in the podcast land and where I'm gonna be, all of that is found@luannnagara.com. Thank you so much. Have an excellent day.”