Green By Design Podcast Episode 008: Sustainable Leather with Beverly McAuley
With Brady Zaitoon of Angel City Lumber
Check out my video interview with Brady, or the transcript below!
Beverly McAuley, Director of Education and Sustainability at Moore and Giles
Here's the transcription of our conversation: Erica:
Okay. Hello and welcome. Hi, Beverly,
Erica:
Thank you so much for joining us today. This is the green by design podcast and we are so, so, so, so happy to have you here. Thank you for joining me today.
Beverly:
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be part of it.
Erica:
Well, you work for a company called Moore and Giles, and before we get into what you do there,
I'm going to give the readers a little bit of insight into your background. Um, so they can get to know you a little bit better. So for those of you listening, Beverly is a graduate of Kansas state university with a bachelor's of science degree in interior design. So she's one of us. She has served the architectural and design community as an educational resource and representative for various products for 28 years. Beverly shares her extensive knowledge of leather through 15 years of experience, including her current position as director of education and sustainability at Moore andGiles, since 2012, Beverly's passionate about innovative sustainability and the environment. She is a member of the LP 50 and presents regularly as an ambassador presenter for the international living futures Institute. In 2008, she founded the nonprofit project change Inc, and became an award winning community leader.
Erica:
The organization empowers volunteers to find their unique way to make a difference through community service. Her efforts engaged thousands of volunteers completing over 300 service projects to bring permanent and positive change to Kansas city. Many of these projects have a direct impact on sustainability and she continues to volunteer throughout her community. She is a K-State extension master naturalist and leads a nature based retreats in her spare time. I'm assuming K state means, wow. That is such an interesting background. I am always interested to hear about a fellow interior designer who came to sustainability, like starting in interior design and your education was in interior design and went into sustainability because I came from the opposite, which is probably a little bit more backwards, but I came from environmental and sustainability education and then like into the business of interior design and green design. So I always love to know like the opposite transition. So what was your like sustainability journey? Like once you were already in this business?
Beverly:
Um, boy, and I'll try to make this a short answer with so many different pieces to it. And really what I find is it, life is a puzzle, you know, and you have these different pieces that fall into place. And here we are in this moment now. So for me all my life, I've had a love of nature. I believe natural products are a key aspect to great interior design, and I love creating things and starting something, you know, beautiful and new and, and healing if possible. So that kind of led me into interior design and I started seeing through representing various products and the focus on sustainability over the years, or depending on the product, the non focus on sustainability really kind of bothered me, right? If it was a product that was taking away or harming the environment, I seem to be aware of it before it became a big issue or a big buzz word, we'll say in the industry fast forward to my time when I was Moore and Giles, I kind of always viewed that part of me as a separate part. That part, that loved nature and environment was passionate about climate change and kind of an activist in that way until I came across. Um, and something I'm sure we'll discuss a product that we have that is super sustainable, which led me then to the living futures Institute, which you mentioned in the bio at that point, all of the pieces of the puzzle click into place. So now there's crossover with that passion for the environment and interior design and being a representative,
Erica:
Right? So this role you have at Moore and Giles is like perfectly suited to you where you get to be the ambassador of all things green within a specific product line and important product line at a company trying to do good. It sounds like which you'll tell us about. So I do actually have a sustainability statement for Moore and Giles, but I think it'll be more impactful if you just tell us a little bit about that. And perhaps before that, you can just tell us a little bit more about the kind of products that you guys make and a little bit about the company it's been around a long time and maybe teeny bit about the evolution of that.
Beverly:
Sure. We'd love to Moore and Giles was founded in 1933 during the great depression actually. So the whole, the whole company rests on this amazing story of survival, right? Wow. Yeah. Rising up out of a, kind of a horrible, uh, experience. So with that, we sell other products. So leather hides, mainly if you go to our website, you'll see that we have kind of two divisions of the company, one being our bags and accessories, which are, you know, go shopping by all means if they're beautiful, but also leather for designers. And that's kind of the piece that I'm going to speak to today, the leather for designers, we have hundreds of products that can be specified on your projects as the actual hide of leather. Okay. So we don't make the, we give you the leather for upholstery, for the chair. For instance, that's just one use of our product. We are a company based out of Virginia, a little town in Virginia family really defines the company, not from a standpoint of where a family owned, but from a standpoint of we view our partners, our tanneries oversees our employees and our clients as part of our family. So it's, it's a really wonderful down to earth organization, highly, highly interested in doing the right thing on all levels. So keep that in mind, you know, just whether you're purchasing a height of leather or a handbag, it is something company-wide that we are driven by.
Erica:
That's beautiful. And that is something I relate to. That is what I'm. I am personally trying to actually a lot of the AI-related too, because not that I can compare this last recession to the great depression, but I graduated from my undergrad and the great recession trying to do environmental work. And then now I'm trying to have a for-purpose people, profit planet business. So a lot of it is really aligned, which is why when I saw a representative of Moore and Giles at, I think it was the West edge design fair and Santa Monica here, a representative was on a sustainability panel. And I was like, I got to talk to them. I got to know more about this because I do not know as much as I feel like I should, in terms of leather products, sustainability, tanneries all that kind of stuff. I know tidbits, but I think you're going to be really helpful in pulling it all together for me today and other interior designers.
Erica:
So yeah, let's dig into it. I got really excited when I discovered Moore and Giles because I love leather. I love it for me. If there's not been a replacement, a vegan replacement made from petroleum based products, plastic based products that comes near. And I know people are experimenting with things like pineapple, leather and mycelium fabric. And I have not had my hands on any of it. So I have no context about what kind of comparison it is, if any, and the other half of me besides the design oriented side, is it by identity environmentalist and I eat plant based. Most of the time, there is a divide within you with this love or this amazing product. And me as a crazy animal lover and deep environmentalist. And this happens a lot in the sustainability world where you cannot have it all because everything is so interconnected and woven together on our lovely planet. You can kind of only just pick and choose your own way forward. And everyone has to make the decision about the healthiest, sustainable steps they're going to make that's right for them. So I am interested to see what we can do within the world of animal leather to make things better and reach for better.
Beverly:
Okay. Well, first of all, we have a lot in common. So just hearing all of those things you mentioned, I would say the number one thing that I'm hoping listeners will understand after this conversation today is that there's a lot of misinformation out there. Leather has a bad rap, which no pun intended, which it really shouldn't. It is a by-product I realized this year or within the last month, but I've said that for years and people still don't quite understand it. So I'm going to break that down for you a little bit. Yeah. So leather, the leather industry has nothing to do with the meat industry. No cow is ever going to be killed for its hide. Cows are raised, rendered and owned by farmers to be sold for meat. Right?
Beverly:
The fact is, I mean, you may be eating more plant-based as are a lot of people, but the demand for meat is just rising and rising. So maybe it's, you know, other countries, I don't know. I know. Yes. Yeah. So there are many, many cows out there that are being raised and rendered for their meat. So what happens to those hides is they become a waste product that would go into the landfill and start decomposing and really be an environmental hazard. The leather industry takes those hides, diverts them from the landfill and create something lasting durable that will be timeless and lasts for many, many years. So on many aspects of the sustainable choice, one where diverting waste. So you look at any other industry and you say we're diverting waste from the landfill and that's, that's a positive, right? That's a sustainable win. The next piece is the tanning of the leather. Tanneries most of the tanneries in the U S they're not many of them left. I think we get most of our leather from tanneries in Europe and the European tanneries as well as many worldwide tanneries are really quite frankly a lot further with their environmental standards than we are, especially as of late. And I won't go there.
Erica:
Yeah. We've talked about all that a year before and in some differences between countries and kind of how confusing that is, we've mentioned that the European union has different standards chemically and what is allowed in products and not, and that's been reoccurring theme. And I think I've mentioned our current administration. I don't really remember at this point, but don't worry about going there. Yeah. It is what it is,
Beverly:
But it's important to note that the, yeah, the tanneries are super strict. They are required to meet or exceed all of the reach. If you're not familiar with reach look, R R E a C H I won't spell it all out. Cause we'll be here forever. But at any rate it's regarding the chemicals that are used. So every tannery is required to meet or exceed those requirements regulations. They're also required to follow very stringent rules and regulations on, you know, water and an environment. And kind of the bonus is all of our tanneries are more than willing to do that. And many of them push the envelope to even do better than what is required of them. So we're talking about the chemistry behind tanning is, is not a bad thing. It's, it's a really, always improving chemistry to the point where there's a new way to tan leather, that many people aren't aware of.
Beverly:
And that makes something that was touched on in the meeting where you first learned about orange Isles, um, all of tanning. So all of the leaf tanning is a new method. And we can go into that further in a moment, but it's using the by-product of olive trees. So the fallen leaves that fall and would otherwise be burned into the atmosphere again, not great, right. Being used to create a syrup or a tea to tan the leather. So now you've got a by-product tanning, a by-product in a totally organic and water-based way, it's amazing, easy to upholster. You know, there are a lot of different ways to do it. And the other plus of that process is that the tanneries don't have to invest in new equipment. So. Wow. Okay. Right. Great.
Erica:
Okay. So I'm going to recap a couple of important points that you made here. One is just going back to the way beginning basics of landfills, which you mentioned. Okay. So the, the hides themselves. So we're trying to use every piece of the animal, and this is actually a great example of that. So the meat industry does their thing and then the Hines are leftover and then those are sold into the leather industry instead of going into a landfill, just specifically to be, to be specific about the problem with landfill. I think everyone, at least in California, because we had a great like recycling campaign in the nineties understands that we don't want things in landfill, but just to be clear, what happens in landfills is that things are breaking down. Some things break down easily and some things do not and take a really long time.
Erica:
But as things break down, there's a chemical process that releases various kinds of chemicals. You can't trap them underneath the ground, or there would be an explosion because one of those processes, as things are offgassing as methane. So you have to release the methane from those landfills into the atmosphere. There are some landfills that can divert that in, make it into usable energy. But a lot of them literally we'll have like a pilot, a big pilot light and burn off that gas into the atmosphere helping to cause climate change. So just to be really like, nitty-gritty, that's my environmental science background coming in to about why we don't want other things in the landfill. And the same thing it sounds like with the olive leaves themselves, that's curious, you said they were going to be burned, so they're going to be put in an incinerator.
Beverly:
So typically before this process, the leaves would be burned to get rid of them. So people would, I think it was possibly not as an incinerator. It could have just been piles of pile.
Erica:
And this is on an olive tree farm.
Beverly:
Correct? So in the olive street, yes. Yes. Okay.
Erica:
And just to differentiate this all live, first of all, it's great that it's a by-product meaning no new products or chemicals are needed to be created and use energy and water and resources to make a new solution to 10 that's the first great thing. The second great thing is we're diverting particles from the atmosphere from being burned. The third great thing is the actual chemical components of the olive leaves versus synthetic dyes. And that I think is where I'd love for you to just share a little bit about like what the, I typically call like conventional alternative is the non-sustainable alternative because this is where I've heard of things like there's chromium and our tanning process for other kinds of tanneries and other different kinds of Garry sounding chemicals. And then I've heard, even if you take out chromium and I've seen like chromium free leather, it doesn't mean that there's not like a million other things in there to be concerned about. So chemicals are something that my clients are really concerned about and other designers clients are, so what are we avoiding by Moore and than Giles using the natural olive process?
Beverly:
So there's a lot to unpack there, right? Yeah. Back up a little bit. And I'm, and I, and I will say chromium tanning does get kind of a bad rap as well. The chromium used in the tanning industry today is very different than the chromium scary chromium that people have been afraid of. Chromosome six, the Popovich chromium, that is not what is used. Okay. This is chromium three. It's the same type of chromium that you would find in tomatoes. Our bodies actually need a certain amount of chromium every day. So didn't know, thank you. There you go. There, you have it. So it's, it's a, it's a much safer method of tanning than what people are concerned with or what they're thinking. You know, what they think, what we think we know sometimes the Chrome free tanning is referred to as wet white, and you can also hand that way. It's another form of mineral tanning. Okay. And then the all, if tanning is the newest form and it is really, truly very new in the world of tanning and tanneries are starting to pick up on it, but certainly not every line of ours is stands that way, but we'll take designers like yourself specifying and using it just like anything does for it to become popular and take off, take off
Erica:
Just quickly. My favorite topic of all time is it's market demand for sustainable things. I nerd out on the intersection of economics and sustainability, because that is, I think, where the magic happens in Western countries, America was founded on capital basically on capitalism. And we don't necessarily want to like shun that part of our history or say that it's bad. We just want to use it for good. So that intersection is like, I get all flustered and excited about,
Beverly:
Right, right. Yes, absolutely. It's there are so many companies out there like Moore and Giles who see this opportunity to change things, right. And just to kind of continue that evolution and continue that, Hey, there's this new way to do things and look at how great this is. Let's everybody hop on board. So we were the leader in talking to our tanneries and getting them to take on this new type of tanning. Now it's up to the designers to use it. And that's really where we are. And not just ask that you mentioned in my bio I'm part of the LP, 50 is a group of manufacturers, actually, there's over 50 of us now who have all done the same thing. We've all created something within our line that is really sustainable and exciting. It's just a matter of, you know, it needs to now take that next step to really the industry needs to take a hold of it so that we can really continue to grow in that direction.
Erica:
I'm so glad you mentioned that because I actually don't really know a lot about what that organization is. Can you give us like one or two sentence explanation and I'd be interested to know if that's something we'd be able to like start as, as a sourcing point. Like, can I look up LP 50 companies when I'm beginning to source? Is that
Beverly:
I think we're getting there. What I would suggest is check out living future.org. Yes. This is kind of a, let's say Ted. Yeah. Okay. And if you look@livingfuture.org, you'll see a lot of different, amazing things. Really. Some of it's residential, some of it isn't some of it's more commercial, but, but it's fans, both markets, right? A lot of the products in the beginning here, many of them are a little bit more commercially or focused, but not all of them are ours, for instance, is can go any direction. But if you look at declare their program declare, or even living products, that's where that came from the declare label, which is all about ingredient transparency. So back to your comment about chemicals and, you know, everyone's kind of concerned about offgassing and interior health with your products. That is the whole reason why I think declare came about as for ingredient transparency. So look for products that have declare labels, that's a really easy way to see what you're getting.
Erica:
Yes. We're going to try and get a representative from them onto the show. So yeah, that should not be difficult. Okay. Maybe now that I have your backing, it'll help me a little bit extra, so, okay. So that's great. So I'm actually surprised a year that all obtaining or vegetable tanning is new because I assumed that's like what pre industrialization people did.
Beverly:
So it's a little different, so there's vegetable tanning, and then there's all obtaining
Erica:
A differentiator. Okay,
Beverly:
Great. And that's a great point. You're just asking the best questions. So vegetable tanning. Yes. That's what we had before we ever had chemical tanning with vegetable tanning. What you're doing there is taking something from nature. Okay. It's not a bad way to tan at all, but you're taking a tree bark or a plant oil or something, something from nature, you're creating a solution for the leather without getting into all the details. It's different equipment, different tanning process to vege, Tana leather. Also, it's a different end result. So truly vege tans leather is more firm. So if you think of like, um, like a strap, like a more, or a belt, like a belting leather, that's usually what you're going to end up with. So it's a little harder to pollster, uh, to a lot longer to, to create the leather. And then it's was a more expensive process as well.
Beverly:
That's why the chemical tanning or the mineral tanning took over because it was faster. It was easier. And what you got as an end result was much easier to upholster. Well, now the olives tanning, you're not taking something from nature. This is a byproduct from nature. You're able to use the same equipment that people have been using for mineral tanning for the century, you know? Wow. And the process is much more similar to what they're used to versus the vege tanning process. So a lot of wins, a lot of wins in that column for, for all of tanning.
Erica:
That's great. So you guys are sourcing from Europe, which is going to have different standards than the various countries in Asia or different places around the world. Like basically it's a patchwork of standards when you look at it globally. So what is it that we are moving away from in terms of impacts to, I guess the chemical element, the sustainability element, and even the social element, like, are we putting, I often wonder about certain practices. Are we putting the makers and the day workers in harm's way in the production?
Beverly:
A couple of things, most of our tanneries are European, but not all. Okay. We partner with people around the world who are very thoughtful about the environment and the communities around them. And something important to remember is a lot of these tanneries most tanneries are located in small towns and everyone who works at that tannery lives in that town drinks, that water breathe that air. So they are all very conscious of what they're putting out there or not intentionally not putting out there, but when it comes to any type of chemical, unlike in some ways what we do here in the United States,
Erica:
Maybe that's why all our perceptions are like what?
Beverly:
Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, I don't want to make the mistake of making it sound like everyone outside of Europe is doing harm and doing a bad thing. Cause that's not the case. Sure, sure. No. I think a couple of things I want to touch on before it gets too far away from me is there was kind of this X additional piece about leather that makes it sustainable, that we've often forget about and that's durability and longevity. Oh yeah. Good point. And so I often talk to my designers when I speak and I'll say, you know, how often have you heard someone say, I want to hand down this amazing heirloom piece of vinyl, right? UBC or what have you, even with fabric, you don't necessarily hear that. But what you do see is, is a classic piece of furniture or a very nice piece of furniture covered in leather that has just worn through the existence of a person.
Beverly:
And it's become part of their story. I have a client who told a story recently. And when we were on this topic during a presentation, who said, I do have a leather chair, I sit in every day has gathered the oils from the back of my head and where my hands are. He's like, I just thought it was kind of, Oh, you know, I don't know. He said, but my kids are all now telling me that they're fighting over, who gets it when I'm gone. And he said, his, his eldest daughter came to him and said, dad, to me, that chairs you every time I see that chair, I see you. And I want that in my life. That's going to make me cry. I know. Right. So like that we have a similar piece in our home and in our son is always like, take good care that because that's, that's mine someday. And I know, you know, and it's leather, it's not anything else. So we're less likely to tear off the upholstery and Rhea pollster, a good leather piece of furniture.
Erica:
Amen. How good is that distressed or worn or lived in aged leather? Like when I go sourcing for various things, like my favorite thing to source pre loved as I call it is like a fabulous leather chair or she's or something. It just, and that's like, my that's why we're here today. Like, that's my love of leather and other designers love of leather. It is just this amazing quality and I'm thankful to the animal for it. And it's just like, it's just the best story. And then it becomes clear that your story. Yeah,
Beverly:
Absolutely. So that's just, I didn't want to leave that hanging out there. I wanted to make sure we touched on that. Yeah.
Erica:
Yes, no problem. The amazing things you're doing, I want to just be clear about the educational piece about in contrast what we are trying to avoid the practices we're trying to move away from and why all leather things are not created equal.
Beverly:
Okay. Yeah. And without getting into a huge leather one Oh one, I will, I will just say some kind of some basic things to understand about leather prayer. First of all, you know, as a designer, every type of leather has a different characteristic and thus will bring a different character to your interior. So I, you know, ultimately you need to do the best by your clients, working with your representatives to understand which product falls in line with the look you're going for in the application you're using is super important. And you know, you indicated earlier, you said something like, you know, I don't know that much about, you know, all of this, I know a little bit, you're not supposed to know everything. That's what your representatives are for where your resource. So we're, you know, don't feel bad. Yeah. Ultimately the more natural leather, as far as finish goes, you know, the more Pitino you'll get with time, the more character you'll build with time and to some people that makes them nervous, the patina aspect, but the more natural it is, you know, you're dealing with Anna Lynn dies. I would suggest a full grain leather. If you're really wanting to stick with the highest, best quality product, a full grain means nothing has been altered or sanded or corrected there. But you know, every hide goes to you somewhere. There's no, no waste unless people quit buying leather. In which case we're starting to see that people are actually having to bury or burn hides because there's been this misinformation of don't buy leather. It's bad. People keep eating me. So that
Erica:
Is my biggest problem. I feel like we have to approach it from the other way around. And my assumption is even if half of the world ate less specifically herd animals in this case that we're talking about, I think that we would still have enough leather for the things that we want to do with it. So if we have a long time, we have a lot of years to try and decrease meat consumption before other industry panics and says our businesses. Wow.
Beverly:
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, leather and leather is used for a lot of different things too. Right? We use it for, but it's what I tell people is this, if you are concerned, if you're an environment environmentalist like you and I, if you're an animal rights, activists, whatever you are, you know, don't eat the meat, that's fine. But by the leather, because eventually, you know, let's say everyone gets on board, which let's be honest, that's a far reach, but you know, if you have people eating meat and not buying leather, all of these hides are going to go into the landfill. If you have people who stop eating meat and continue to buy the leather, eventually, you know, it will all, it will all even out. And yes, if leather went out of business, that would mean everybody quit eating meat and Hey, you know, go for it. I'll sell you something else, something else that's fine. But I just, you know, it's not going to happen. So what we're trying to avoid is for people to misunderstand, therefore not use leather at all. Right. And then this waste
Erica:
And, and leather can last for, like you said, for so long that it gives me the heebie-jeebies and things.
Beverly:
Just getting, throw it away. Yeah. So, so that leads me into this whole vegan leather trend. And I'm going to, I'm going to do this in order to be leather. You have it by definition. It's, it's an animal hide. That's been tanned into a leather, right? So leather is a tanned animal hide. So there's no such thing as vegan leather. What that means is a manmade alternative. Typically that is what that will be. So just to, to touch on that is this, anytime you choose something other than leather, you are choosing to invest in a process that will be created. And typically it's going to contribute to climate change in some way, um, with industry, you know, you're dealing with chemicals and, and that sort of thing to create a product. Most of the leather alternatives are I have PVC, which is like a redless no-no chemical, that red list no-no chemical is not included. And in any weather tanning process, you know, the main ingredient of leather is the animal hide. So it's something to keep in mind that these alternatives, while it's an excellent marketing ploy and it's, and it's really trying to gear toward that animal.
Erica:
Amen. Hands up, you guys can't see me, but
Beverly:
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so important to recognize the fact that when you move away from any natural product, you are investing in a process, a chemical, and it's important to ask the question, you know, how does this off gas into my interior? What will happen during the life cycle of this product and what happens at the end of its life? Where does it go? How quickly will it break down? How will it impact my environment? So it's people and planet part of what you said earlier, please consider and make sure you're educating yourself with the correct resources.
Erica:
Absolutely. That is perfectly said because a lot of the currently the status quo for alternatives are crude oil based, meaning you're, you are voting for that industry as a whole. We need to move away from, and when you compare the life cycles between the two products, like I had almost never buy alternative leather. I had this, I don't know I have this one jacket. And I think I might've mentioned on this show before elsewhere, it literally disintegrated on my body. I went into the bathroom and I was looking down on them. I was like, what are all these black pieces everywhere? And I realized, my pieces of my jacket were falling down my shirt, covering my body. And I had to throw it out after like nine months. And I have never had that problem with obviously my leather jackets. And so now there is the petroleum byproduct in whatever landfill that went to, and I had chosen to support that industry with that, with that purchase.
Erica:
So, yeah, it's a really important piece of the cycle that I think is left out. Somehow people are very confused about petroleum products, synthetic products. I don't think there's a lot of clarity about where those things come from. Like when I was lecturing an environmental science class, once I was like, you guys, where does plastic come from? Do you take it out? Like, does it nuggets in the ground? What is it? And a lot of people have a big disconnect between the final product and the source product and all the things that happen in between. So I love that you brought that up.
Beverly:
We're good. Yes. Yeah. Something important to keep in mind. I, I think, you know, ultimately what the vegan leather alternatives are playing on is for someone to think that an animal is harmed for its hide. And when it comes to leather, that is not the case. Cows are never going to be harmed. As I mentioned earlier for their high, this is a, this is a byproduct. This is by nature. Leather is a sustainable industry. Um, the olive tanning piece is just an evolution in the chemistry. That's leading us further toward an even better way to Tam leather. But the current methods that are popular are okay. I think back to your question about, you know, what should we look for in leather itself? You know, your best bet is always a full grain leather that's been analyzed, died. Those are transparent dyes that are more of a stain than a pigment.
Beverly:
Okay. Yeah. And so if you have a pure Anil unfinished, then it's just the pure dies basically. And then if you could take it a step further, if you're, if you're really, really interested, then I would say, look for leather, that has a red list, free declare label, which is our four olive tan products do have all of that. Um, and that just means that they're less than 100 parts per million of any red list chemical. And those are our chemicals deemed kind of worst in class PVC being one of them. You know, it doesn't have those. I think we're moving toward a, an era of more and more emissions tests and air quality tests with products in general, to see how they impact our interiors. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, we only have a little bit of time left. So to end on a positive note, I would want to know, are you seeing any positive changes in the interior design industry from your perspective and perhaps the leather perspective?
Beverly:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, obviously the olive tanned is to me the, like the newest, if you're talking about something new and new chemistry and process, I think that's pretty amazing. The interest by the industry is the most exciting thing and hope hoping it will grow. So if you just imagine for a moment, if a world where every product that existed, the waste that comes from that product, whether it's end of life or during its life becomes an ingredient to a new product, right? So there's no waste. We're just in this circular, circular environment. Now the idea of that is exciting to me. And then taking that a step further to start creating products that not only are sustainable, but regenerative. So not only do they help lessen our impact on the environment, but they improve by existence the environment. We are headed in that direction as an industry. And I couldn't be more excited to see where we're going to be in the next five to 10 years. I am so glad to hear you say that. Well, where can
Erica:
Our listeners and viewers find you?
Beverly:
Okay, well, they can find Moore and in giles.com. So, and just click on leather for designers shop on the other part, you can also find us on Instagram. So Moore and Angeles leather on Instagram. We have a pretty good selection of images and articles there as well. Perfect.
Erica:
Well, thank you so much. You have been so knowledgeable and I loved learning all of that and I know everyone else did. So thank you so much for joining us today and helping educate us. And I am sure that we will be talking soon.
Beverly:
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.